Establishing a Hyundai Kia Luxury Brand, Oppo Point-Counterpoint.

"William Byrd" (thedriver) 12/27/2013 at 14:17 • Filed to: HYUNDAI, KIA, GENESIS, EQUUS, K900, CADENZA

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Now for something a little different. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and I decided to write an article about whether or not Hyundai/Kia should establish a luxury marque in order to help it's Equus, Genesis and K900 luxury sedans succeed.

The format will be debate-style, point-counterpoint. We each took a side; I am "for" establishment of a new luxury brand, Arch Duke is against. Oddly enough, instead of having to take up a point we didn't believe in, we both actually believe in our for/against stance, which made it easier. I'll go first, since I'm typing right now. My submissions have some input from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , our resident !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! critic.

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Premise 1: Hyundai/Kia cannot, and will not, be luxury brands, and therefore needs to establish a new luxury nameplate.

By !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

Price Disparity

At least I do not think they can as long as they sell the Accent, Rio, Elantra, and Forte. Good cars to be sure, but certainly not associated with anything premium. It is my assessment that buyers will not want to arrive at a dealership to plunk down $61,000 plus for an Equus when the person next to them at the finance desk is buying an Accent hatchback for less than $15,000.

2014 Kia Cadenza

Brand Image

The same reason highlighted above regarding price disparity also contributes to the issues with brand image. Selling one of the cheapest cars on the road in the same showroom next to a $60K luxury sedan will confuse buyers at best, and at worst keep them from buying the Equus and K900 altogether. Buyers of large luxury cars are partially buying a nameplate. They want their neighbor to go, "nice BMW Bob" and mean it. That sentence can still be uttered, but "nice...Kia Bob" will be said without the reverence of scenario one. Sure, a new nameplate won't necessarily have the cache of "Cadillac" but it won't automatically get associated with a down-market name that has a spotty past. And we've already heard about !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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Lexus does well because it doesn't have a Toyota badge. Others have had success, Acura and Infiniti come to mind (less so recently I suppose), because none of their more mundane brands could have jumped in to the luxury scene in America under true names. To prove the theory it would be interesting to poll visitors at both of these dealers to see what percentage know of the brand under the badge.

Quality

When Toyota created Lexus in 1989, their mainstream brand already had a reputation of quality and reliability. Hyundai, and by association Kia, still suffers, from images of the unreliable econoboxes they produced in the 80s and early 90s. While most mainstream car magazines, along with Consumer Reports and JD Power, have rated them much higher in initial quality and reliability, they still have some work to do to fight back against that image.

2012 Hyundai Genesis 5.0 R-Spec

So, How do the do it?

When Lexus was created, Toyota spent over 5 years secretly developing the LS400 and it was truly a game changer. Hyundai has already shown it's hand with the Genesis sedan, Equus, K900 and to a lesser extent, the Azera/Cadenza. It's time to bite the bullet and start to develop their dealer market to the point that it can handle another brand. Again look to Toyota, they do it all the time (relatively speaking) both up-market with Lexus and down-market (or at least off-to-the-side-market) with Scion. Toyota does it slow and deliberately (sounds dirty, I know).

Model Development

As mentioned above, they have already started. The Genesis, Equus and K900 already exist. And they are good. And they are already taking up real-estate in showrooms and dealership lots. It's time to expand that. Lexus has close to a dozen models at this point, which took some time obviously. The ES sells well, and we all now it's a Camry. No time like the present, let's get going Hyundai. You have the right platforms, do what Toyota does, share across the brands.

Equus/K900 - They share a platform, either ditch one or differentiate between the two in some way. This is their Lexus LS, 7-series, A8.

Genesis - take it further up-market and keep it sporty, ala Lexus GS, 5-series, etc.. The 2015, pictured below, looks like a step in the right direction. The Genesis should fill the gap between the entry-level $30K option and the $60K plus Equus/K900.

Entry Level $30K car - Think Lexus ES, I think you could easily build this from a Azera/Cadenza. Heck, even the Sonata is a great looking car, it has the bones to be a pretty decent entry-level luxury car. Do what Toyota does to the Camry, put a new body on it, upgrade the interior, and maybe offer AWD vs. just FWD. People will buy it, especially the 40MPG Hybrid.

Luxury SUV(s) - Start with a Santa Fe or Veracruz and do the same treatment Toyota does with the Highlander to RX conversion. New body, better interior, done.

2015 Genesis Sedan

Premise 2: With all of the current players in the luxury car game, there is no more room for a new brand to thrive.

By !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

With all of the current players in the luxury car game: BMW, Lexus, Mercedes Benz, Cadillac, Audi, Infiniti, Jaguar, there is no more room for a new brand to thrive. This isn't the '90s anymore; could there be any room for sales of a new luxury brand that isn't exciting and different like Tesla? Let's take a look at current sales figures to see if there is even a business case to built a 3rd brand.

Sales Figures Enough?

Below are the Year-to-Date sales numbers for luxury automakers:

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Are 32,276 sales from 2 (soon to be 3) models enough to justify a new brand? I would say no.

Dealership Network?

Would the current crop of Hyundai and Kia dealers be willing, or be able establish or financially support new dealerships for a separate brand? Unless they were guaranteed new products to bolster a full line, probably not.

Innovation?

If they do create a new brand, it will not last long unless it can bring something new to the market that is not just low price and great warranty. Until they can, they should just keep selling them at the Hyundai/Kia dealers, and actually sell them with Hyundai/Kia badges all around and stop pretending that they aren't, I think that alone would help them stand out from the crowd.

2014 Hyundai Santa Fe

Internal Competition?

The establishment of a new brand would mean even more dilution of the Hyundia/Kia branding. How did that work out for Ford, and GM? Ford was to Mercury, like Chevy was to Pontiac, Olds was to Buick, and like Hyundai is to Kia. Yes, Hyundai's and Kia's have different body panels, but they are the same cars underneath. The current crop of Hyundai's and Kia's is already far to similar and they have not differentiated the brands whatsoever, so the addition of another brand would cause even further confusion.

If they need another brand just for luxury, why not brand the higher up cars as Hyundai's and use Kia as the mainstream or the other way around? There you would have an established name and reduce the expense and confusion of a 3rd nameplate.

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Summary

We all believe that, in order to be successful selling luxury vehicles, Hyundia and Kia needs more upscale product. Regardless of whether they sell them side-by-side in current Hyundia/Kia dealerships, or via a newly established nameplate, they should use current platforms and intellectual capital to expand their over-$30,000 offerings. If they can truly offer what Lexus did in the late 80s, a superior, more efficient product, for less money, they may have a chance at success.

However, as Lexus did initially, they already have some room to improve. Right Foot Down notes that his sister's fully loaded Optima turbo seems impressive for its $40k sticker until you notice the finer details that seem to have been skimped on. The LED tail lights and navigation system, for example, look good until you compare them to a set from Mercedes.

Regardless of whether or not Hyundai takes the plunge and really starts to differentiate models across it's current brands and establishes a new luxury brand, they will still need to work on innovation and quality to set themselves apart from their rivals who have been at this much longer.

Acura's extinction couldn't hurt either....

P.S., special thanks for !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for letting us hijack part of his post this morning to brainstorm this.

RightFootDown > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:26

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A friend of mine was just over in Korea and this topic was brought up. I certainly can't confirm this however I'm told the country takes great pride in these two brands and they are considered luxury cars. Every brand has to start somewhere and it would make the most sense for Hyundai and Kia to convince their own before convincing the world.

As I mentioned before, I don't see either Hyundai or Kia being taken seriously in America's luxury market until they ditch every econobox model and prices start above the range of the average car buyer.

Victorious Secret > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:26

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Well written, 10/10 would read again

EL_ULY > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:34

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will purchase over Lincoln and Buick

V8 RWD FTW :]

a 4 door version of the Genesis Coupe (smaller than Genesis) would be rad.

thebigbossyboss > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:40

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Very good 11/10. Sorry thedriver, I agree with Arch Duke. Kia low end, Hyundai high end. Let's roll!

William Byrd > thebigbossyboss 12/27/2013 at 14:43

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No worries, as I researched each brand, it could easily work out that way. Regardless, they need to differentiate between Hyundai and Kia. Even if they don't create a 3rd brand.

Plus they need to get people saying "Hi, Unn, Die". It sounds fancier than "Hun Day", which is the way most Merican's say it.

Bullitt417 > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:43

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If Hyundai and Kia want to branch into the $60000 market, I believe they will need a third brand. At the end of the day, I won't buy a 60000 Hyundai. It's a brand issue and as snobby as it is, I don't want to spend endless hours justifying my purchase to everyone else.

The next issue of contention is timing. A new brand would be launched with the understanding that it will be a loss for at least a decade. Therefore, Hyundai and Kia will be used to make up that loss.

Currently, Hyundai and Kia have two fresh line-ups of automobiles. This is the first generation of cars from the company that I have looked at and went "hey you know what- I don't think I would mind owning that." They can't pull a Lincoln and let these models languish. The next gen cars need to be just as good. For that to happen, they need development money. My concern is that by launching a third brand now, all the money needed to keep Hyundai and Kia successful will be dumped into the third brand.

I think they should concentrate on their next generation of cars. Build them and build them great. Keep the market share growing as this is the customer base you need for an "aspirational" brand.

They just launched a new Genesis. Keep it as a Hyundai for now and let it run its life cycle. In 6 years, when it is time for a redesign, if everything has gone well with these "second Gen" cars, now launch your Luxury brand. This gives you a good ten years of building quality cars and changing perceptions that you can use to bolster your luxury brand. Then follow the Toyota model, just less bland.

Textured Soy Protein > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:45

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"his sister's fully loaded Optima turbo seems impressive for its $40k sticker"

What the what???

I had to double check this. A fully-loaded Optima Limited with every accessory and destination charge stickers at $37,475.

Then I went and tried to option up a Camry or Accord to that price and other than the Accord Plug-In Hybrid, they're both a couple grand less than the top level Optima.

Really.

Tom McParland > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:50

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Excellent work guys! As I've said before Hyundai/Kia's problem is the same that is plaguing Caddy it's the dealership experience.

William Byrd > Tom McParland 12/27/2013 at 14:52

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Thanks! Cadillac should know better, always amazes me when "premium" dealerships can't get it right. If Hyundai/Kia want to compete in that realm, they need to come up with some sort of new training for their staff so they aren't immediately scaring off BMW, and Mercedes buyers who decide to go see what they are all about.

willkinton247 > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 14:56

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I really think that Hyundai needs to go full on Luxury, and allow Kia to be the economy brand. I don't believe Kia has any potential in the luxury market, at all. I don't think I know a single person that, given 60K, would spend that money on a Kia.

Honestly, if Hyundai wants to follow an example, maybe they should look at Chrysler. Chrysler appears to be on the way to becoming the luxury brand of it's group.

William Byrd > Tom McParland 12/27/2013 at 14:59

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Updated with a link to your article. Definitely relevant.

Tom McParland > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 15:04

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Cool and it's this type of teamwork that makes the amateur bloggers on Oppo rival some other car blogs. :)

Luke's Dad Sold His 2000TL To Get a Sienna > William Byrd 12/27/2013 at 16:19

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I really love the Genesis, Equus, K900, and the Cadenza when they first came out and the next Genesis is just as memorable as the first Genesis, but to me, they'll never be luxury cars like the GS and LS that I love. Hyundais and Kias will always just be pretty damn good cars.

Bytemite > William Byrd 12/28/2013 at 20:00

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Except that would be the completely wrong way to pronounce Hyundai...

It should be pronounced Hyun-dae. The american version is more fitting at least.

Bytemite > EL_ULY 12/28/2013 at 20:03

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Like a 2-series Gran Coupe?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > William Byrd 12/30/2013 at 08:43

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Can this be put on the front page? I really want to hear people's opinions on this.

William Byrd > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 12/30/2013 at 08:44

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I emailed Patrick on Friday, not sure. It's the holidays and things are slow, so you'd figure it may have a shot at making the FP.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > William Byrd 12/30/2013 at 08:46

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Usually something like this is on the front page weekend edition.

crown victor victoria > Textured Soy Protein 12/30/2013 at 09:34

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I think this price relationship only started happening in the last 6 months or so. Both Toyota and Honda cut prices, in an attempt to kneecap cars like the Optima and Mazda6, who are eating into their marketshare. I believe Kia also increased prices nominally around the same time to (deservedly) escape the budget alternative stigma.

Anyway, Camry and Accord have not always been cheaper. And neither Toyota or Honda can play that game for very long. It's an aggressive strategy. They are tacitly admitting their products are not as good and can't improve them fast enough so they will take a haircut on profit in order to maintain sales levels in the short term.

Rico > William Byrd 12/30/2013 at 13:50

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Great read, love the point/counter point set up with facts and figures to back it up. My issue with Hyundai/Kia is that they are doing these things much too quickly and expecting it to translate into drastic results. What they need to do is turn their lower end cars into reliable, great, AUTHENTIC looking cars before trying to come out with some $70k model. Lexus' from the IS -> LS are all quality cars, the lower end Kia/Hyundais not so much.

Can't go from selling unreliable, chintzy, shitboxes to $70k vehicles and expect there to be a drastic turnaround in public perception. They need to work from the bottom up. The person that buys a great, reliable $20-$30k Kia/Hyundai is the person that years later will by a $60k-$80k Equus/K900 not the other way around.

Oh and they need to remove the letter z from their vocabulary/naming schemes.

aquaticko > William Byrd 01/02/2014 at 11:53

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Dunno if you know this, but the American pronunciation of the name is much closer to the actual, Korean pronunciation than the British pronunciation you've written out.

William Byrd > aquaticko 01/02/2014 at 11:56

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I know, it just sounds fancier. :)

Noble Destro > William Byrd 01/02/2014 at 14:24

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I've been following Hyundai/Kia very closely ever since I bought a Sportage last Feb. I have a different take than how they've been approaching their so-far successful climb out of Econo-purgatory.

Hyundai and Kia have a clear brand differentiation: Hyundai is targeted to compete with Japanese cars, Kia is targeted at European cars.

You see it most clearly in the styling, where Kia has chosen cleaner, conservative lines and the Tiger Nose grill, which are similar design queues to BMW and Audi. Hyundai's fluidic sculpture styling evokes the wilder designs of Japanese brands. A few examples for direct competitors as I see it:

Sonata - Camry

Tucson - RAV4

Santa Fe - Highlander - Pilot

Genesis - Lexus GS

Equus - Lexus LS

Elantra - Civic

Forte - Jetta

Forte5 - Golf/GTI

Sportage - Tiguan/Q5

Soul - Countryman

Cadenza - A6/5-Series

K900 - 7-Series/A8

The issue is there's some strange choices with both brands. The Kia line has been producing concept after concept using the RWD platform, their first RWD vehicle was the K900. The RWD platform was used on Genesis and Genesis Coupe, a car that seems to be competing with the Mustang, or maybe Infiniti G-coupe though it's not premium enough. I think Kia should have a RWD coupe and sedan that's shooting at the mythic 3/4-series benchmark.

Two Kias that are just confusing are the Sorento and Optima. The Sorento had a pretty lazy redesign last year. It's a solid vehicle with some pretty upscale appointments, but the styling is way too stodgy to attract X5/A7/Toureg shoppers. But that's academic because the Sorento sells better than all those vehicles . The Optima is strange because it can come in stripped-down, rental car, or stitched white leather on the doors, LEDs $37,000 fashion. However, this is Kia's best selling vehicle, the only European car outselling it is the Jetta and that's just barely.

The Soul crushed the entire Juice Box market and has basically sent Scion packing. The new Soul has decided to go upscale. I drove one at the LA Auto Show and it's now in premium territory, more sporting and on par with Mini. The only thing I think they need for the Soul is a turbo and AWD.

Kia is selling very well in most vehicle segments. I think less base models and more AWD overall would put them closer in cache to Audi. Ditching the Rio and the rental car editions of the Sportage, Optima and Forte would help.

I listened to one of Hyundai's marketing guys on a YouTube video. They're not doing a new luxury brand, but they've been creating "sub-brands" within the Hyundai name. He explained that the two "Genesis" models are two different cars in a RWD sub-brand, and he saw "Santa Fe" being their large crossover sub-brand with two vehicles. If that's the case, I think they should really stick to that differentiation. Equus maybe should have a Genesis name, like "Genesis Estate" or something.

Bottom line, I think Hyundai and Kia have separate destinations but haven't made that easily clear to the average buyer. How their luxury vehicles sell isn't their biggest problem, it's still the sour brand recognition. I've recommended these vehicles to people who cannot get over the name. I have a coworker who wants a premium car for her retirement. She's eyeing the MKZ and VW CC. I said she should look at a Optima SX-L and she thought I was crazy for suggesting Kia. My brother is looking for a crossover for himself and he thinks a gigantic Explorer is a better choice than a Santa Fe Sport, which is perfect for what he needs. "But it's a Hyundai," he says.

ki-ki-ki-kia > Noble Destro 01/10/2014 at 23:17

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This!!!! ^^^^^^

Prome > William Byrd 01/10/2014 at 23:33

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Price Disparity – People finance $30k C-Class Benzes next to people who finance $100k S-Class sedans. I don’t elaborate on this too much, but I’m sure you get the point.

Brand Image – This is only a problem in the US, and it’s a lot less of an issue today than ever due to BMW and MB bringing their cheaper cars to the US. Hyundai and Kia are playing the long game. It costs a lot less to use your current dealer network and make your entire brand better instead of starting from scratch.

Quality – This isn’t 1990. Cars are built better today than ever versus years past. Hyundai and Kia don’t suffer from this nearly as much because the Hyundai and Kia their core customers remember isn’t the Hyundai Excel and the first generation Sonata. Kia may have more of a problem because their first arrival was the Sephia in the mid 90s, which wasn’t that long ago. However, that was well before Hyundai and Kia were joined at the hip.

So, How do the do it? – They do it by building cars that people want without charging for a brand name. Believe it or not, brand name isn’t as important as it used to be. Brand names today, especially with luxury cars, are associated with features and build quality.

Model development – Are you aware of the Hyundai Grandeur? The US gets the Azera, which is the same car, albeit it’s de-contented to keep the price down. Considering I live in Korea, I’ve had seat time in the all of these upscale Hyundais and Kias, the Grandeur and it’s Kia K7 cousin, which is the USDM Kia Cadenza. Same story, the car is de-contented to keep the price down. The model development is there and has been for a while. Again, Hyundai is playing the long game. The next generation Grandeur/Azera will target the Lexus ES vs it nipping at the heels of the Taurus/Impala/Avalon market. It pays to travel outside the US market, you see things in a totally different light.

Bottom line, I don’t think you have the depth to truly assess this, especially considering your view is from within the US borders. Both companies reserve the best of what they have to offer for their home market, and then test the waters outside of it. The fact that Hyundai has sold 30,000+ Genesis and Equus sedans in the US is pretty damn noteworthy. While I don’t think Cadillac, Benz and BMW have anything to worry about, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura do. Time will tell.

awhattup > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 00:33

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As far as I remember Hyundai only owns one third of Kia. Kia is not Hyundai's sub-brand.

awhattup > awhattup 01/11/2014 at 00:38

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Americans are just confused because the way they operate is not what they aren't used to. The author is full of "it doesn't fit what I thnk it should be so I'm just gonna make shit up"

Cliff8928 > Bullitt417 01/11/2014 at 02:09

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See Also: Volkswagen Phaeton

Citolev > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 06:18

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Huyndai and/or Kia could also do like Citroën has been doing for the last few years. They have the cheap cars (C1, C-Elyseé, C3, C4, Picassos, etc) and their DS-badged lineup (DS3, DS4, DS5) that are supposed to be higher quality and different from everything else on the road.

Louis Subearth > Bullitt417 01/11/2014 at 09:00

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Here, Hyundai doesn't need to make a third brand, just to upcsale their lineups by bringing some of the KDM options on US models, which are pretty good, while keeping a competitive price. That way they profit, and require a retool to build more models in Alabama like the Accent and Azera. And last, Hyundai has to bring the i20 WRC along the Accent SR from Australia and the diesel variants for all their models if it applies.

Captain Midnight > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 10:27

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How about this? A name change. Much like Nissan did when they changed their name in the US from Datsun.

Hyundai and to a lesser extent, Kia make good cars, but they will never overcome the negative brand image of the higher priced shoppers they are now going after. Period.

Best solution would be a whole new luxury division ala Lexus, but I don't dont think they have the necessary vehicles to make that happens. The K900 is just a rebodied Equus. So they only really have the Equus and Genesis Sedan. If they come up with a luxury SUV and sports car in the next few years, then I can see them spending the money to make a separate luxury dealership with improved customer service.

VaioStreams > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 15:18

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I think having a 3rd brand is actually a really good idea. Hyundai/Kia haven't made it a secret they are going after the Toyota brand and who better to go after? They cover all the marks. high end luxury, Everyday cars and young fun cars. Between Hyundai and Kia, they can pull this off. Even if the Equus and the K9 (or K900 over here) are the same platform, the K9 can be positioned to go right after the LS. (it's the nicer looking car) add a few things to it. maybe a engine option and we're good. the Equus can go after GS as it is. Bringing the Cadenza or Azera up to that entry level spot. Probably turn the Cadenza in to the entry level and do some body work and make the Azera a coupe so it can go up against the RC. and they would need a new SUV. the Veracruz is a good idea. it's currently not in production and it was big as hell. they have the parts there to do this. They don't need a sports car. The only reason Toyota put their sport cars in the Lexus brand (save for the FRS) is they want to go after BMW.
Past this, Hyundai needs to trim some fat and they know it. Elantra, Sonata and the Veloster are great. Maybe even a dumbed down Azera (because the Avalon is up there in price to some people) as their 4th, model as far as typical cars go. The Genesis coupe needs to stay right where it is, With Hyundai. The Tuscon and Santa fe are good. no changes there. They need to offer the Elantra in a Hybrid model as well. Hyundai would be solid. less cars then Toyota's main branch but enough to stay competitive and keep prices low.
Then there is the interesting problem of Kia. There is a lot going on here. I alway saw Hyundai as Toyota, Kia as Scion. Kia has too many cars as well. They should stick with i'd say 5 to 6 key models. The Rio on the low end(keep the sedan and 5 door). The Forte (Koup and Sedan no 5 door), This is the car that can compete with the TC, but it has a sedan model too, making it a little more practical. The Soul as that odd car. the Optima and the Sportage. But they need a 1 more car, and that would be the GT4 Stinger. this is the best place for that car. Position Kia to take on Scion, offer a car with more HP, better looks and overall performance at the same price and you have a winner. 6 models. that's
Now i need to just talk about their sports cars just for a second. The Tiburon is gone. Probably a good thing as far as the name goes and Hyundai knew the car came out at a bad time. so we know have the Veloster Turbo. this car needs a AWD version. Hyundai wants to get back in to the WRC, this is the car to do it with but that means going against the STi and the Evo. it needs some work but can be done.
FF car that needs to be highlighted here. the K3k (or Forte Koup) is the FF car to focus on. it has some decent looks. at 19k. for the base, good performance (173 out of a 2L) so that makes it more attractive then it's closer competitor the Honda Civic. the K3 cost a little more but you get a little more with it. the Kicker is the SX vs the Si. same power. 2000 dollar difference. so the Forte koup? Leave it alone.
The Genesis coupe needs that 5.0 Tau engine. end of story. i4 turbo, V6 and a 5.0. That is all there is to say about the Gen Coupe.
The GT4 Stinger will fill that gap that has been reinvented by Toyota with the FRS. i said my piece about this, but a quick re-cap. Same price, better performance. beats the FRS.
The last car that the brands need is a MX-5 competitor. Honda is about to bring out the S1500. Alfa Romeo is coming back to the states with their little car. Mini has the roadster, the Audi TT fits in here as well (as far as power goes) This is the last car that Hyundai needs and it should be under the Hyundai brand. Kia had this weird little concept a few years back (11 actually) called the KCV-3. it was a little 2+2. the design needs some work, but the idea was there. this is a car they need to make as well. maybe 4 to 5 years down the line. let the GT4 Stinger settle in. but this is a little MX5 alternative i think would be accept well (just not with that body style)

I doubt anyone will read this but that is my take on what this brand should do. I love the KDM scene. That is where my heart and soul are, but i will criticize them and i personally see where they need to improve, add and subtract. will any of this happen? Probably not, but a fan can dream.

signinsrlame > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 18:54

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stopped reading in the first sentence because I suddenly did not care

http://www.its-not-its.info/

Big-Boi > William Byrd 01/11/2014 at 23:45

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I'm with Arch Duke. I feel that their products are as good or better (mostly better) than at least Acura and Lincoln right now. I actually just drove a base Genesis rental car (it was either that, an Avenger, a Captiva or a Juke), and it was a pretty decent car. It's no 3 series or ATS, but it is not supposed to be. It is a E-class for half the price (do not laugh). It is a solid, comfortable car that does not feel like a dressed up economy car (Azera...I am looking at you). It is inexpensive, but it feels like it costs more. An Avalon, for example, feels like an expensive Toyota instead of a cheap luxury car like the Genesis feels like.

So now that Hyundai (and Kia) have a good product, how about the image? Another personal connection I have to this issue is both my grandmas. They each wanted a new luxury car (I did bring up Miata, but that was shot down with a blank stare). For an elderly women, I thought the Equus or Genesis would be a great value that is reliable and comfortable, while vastly undercutting the prices of similar cars. Here is how that went:

Me: "How about the Equus"

Grandma: "Who makes it"

Me: "Hyundai"

Grandma: "Why the hell do you want me to buy a Hyundai? Do you think I am an idiot? You said you knew about cars!"

That pretty much sums it up. There is a certain demographic that cares about the brand. Whether its great or not, if it does not have a German name or a respectable Japanese or American name, its out of the question. That is not only with older people. I asked some of my non-car-guy friends if they would buy a $60,000 dollar Hyundai that drives like a $100,000 Mercedes. To make it short and leave out the expletives, they said no (I would say no as well, but as a Jalop, I am not really their target market).

Another point I would like to bring up is the room. There is room for a new luxury brand, if they have good cars. We may not see normal people as very good car buyers, but they want different things. They want status, reliability, a good reputation and good MPG. They also want those in a good package. Look at Lincoln. Sure they offer all of the above, but they are still FWD tarted up Fords. Today's consumers realize that, and they know that they can find their status symbols and reliable cars elsewhere. Hyundai has the ability to maybe not push out Lincoln, Acura and Buick (the "fringe-luxury" brands), but they can take them for a wild ride. Another 10 years and some high performance models to get their name out there, and they are the next Infiniti.

In the end, I think that Hyundai and Kia can certainly make due with not having a separate brand, but I think they will be more successful in the long run with a stand-alone luxury brand. They can either be content with making good cars and selling a few of them, or they can go big. Who knows, they may even leave a few established brands in their wake.

Big-Boi > Big-Boi 01/11/2014 at 23:52

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Another thing I forgot to mention: there is only ONE CHANCE. Screw it up, and your chances are done. If the Tesla Roadsters started to catch on fire, there would be no Model S. If the Mp4-12C was reviewed poorly, there would be no P1. I am not saying they should take too long, but they should certainly make sure their products are great before starting. Maybe even plan on breaking even on each car sold so that you can build up a reputation. Then, after a few years, start moving the prices up a hair and bring down production costs (NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF QUALITY) and reap the rewards.

Bullitt417 > Louis Subearth 01/15/2014 at 10:18

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Does "Here" refer to North America? I only ask because you mentioned the competitive price point. What is your definition of competitive pricing? Hyundai represents a value because you are getting similar features for less at the moment. The draw to the car is not the luxury, but rather the price. However, always being the cheap car in the comparison will inevitably make people look for the cost cuts. While I have no doubt Hyundai can engineer something comparable and competitive to BMW and Mercedes, they will still not be able to charge the same amount those companies. Even Cadillac, as far as they have come, is still undercutting their competitors for the value conquest buyer, though recently they said they will be upping prices in the next few years. Hyundai built their brand on economy cars. Transitioning to luxury cars and not giving people a monetary incentive to do buy them, will be harder than just opening a new brand.

Louis Subearth > Bullitt417 01/15/2014 at 13:03

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Yes, by here I mean North America, and why not? I think it's worth it, like when they stopped relying on Mitsubishi for distribution and left them in the dust (sadly), when they released the Santa Fe, being the first Korean car to exceed demand over supply internationally, or when they released the Genesis Coupe and sedan, bringing RWD to their car lineup. They didn't know if they'd succeed or fail. The Genesis and Equus are pretty upscale, and the cost cuts are very simple, mostly because they make their own parts (Mobis), they make and own their cargo ships, they have their own logistics service (Glovis) and they have their own metal foundry. There are the cost cuts.

Bullitt417 > Louis Subearth 01/15/2014 at 14:21

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You are not wrong in anything you are saying. But let me ask you this: Why fight the brand snobbery. Hyundai is no longer a joke.... but they are also not a luxury brand. Why not open a third brand and bypass the judgement. Do everything you just said but wow them as the newcomer. A BMW driver won't trade his car in for a Hyundai. He might for a different brand.

Louis Subearth > Bullitt417 01/15/2014 at 15:42

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This is a clear case of underestimation, just like Ford has a Titanium trim with upscale features, Hyundai can have a similar approach as an "N" model, with improved interiors and performance in a 50-75% margin.

Bullitt417 > Louis Subearth 01/15/2014 at 16:27

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A trim level is different in my eyes. A trim level means you already committed to buying the car. Hyundai building a car like the Equus actually has to get the buyers of cars at that price point (i.e. E-class and 5-series) into the Hyundai showroom. A trim level will easily work for Hyundai and Kia. They proved it with Optima CXL (I think thats the nomenclature anyway), upscaling the car well into the high 30's

Louis Subearth > Bullitt417 01/15/2014 at 18:59

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Remember, anything is possible. If those buyers are afraid of Elantras in the showroom while signing to buy an Equus, they're bonkers. I guess Hyundai has a new thinking of merging common and premium card in their lineups, not just for avoiding the cost of a new brand, but to step up their game. And BTW, if Toyota has its luxury cars under Lexus badges, then why the Crown is a TOYOTA?

Bullitt417 > Louis Subearth 01/15/2014 at 23:13

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Because Lexus is a North American brand. Toyota felt that Americans were not ready to pay a premium price for cars that came from a brand that up until then had only made economy cars. The work around was the invention of Lexus.

Louis Subearth > Bullitt417 01/16/2014 at 05:12

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So am I going to settle with a third brand due to the ignorance of the american market? No. If it's needed to say, this is a conspiracy to have Americans minds slaves to the government with the ignorance.